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Post by duce on Dec 29, 2006 23:38:27 GMT -5
mark had good points, but if you really think money is the issue this off-season you had to be under a rock. the giants were going to overpay many more people if they didn't do it for zito... at least this way they get an ace - shaky or not.No they weren't, there was no one left to overpay. The money this offseason was ridiculous, but that didn't mean they had to become apart of it. The Mets didn't. I don't really buy the argument that money isn't a factor this off season because of how ridiculous the prices are. What about next year? Or the year after? Or whenever the salaries even out? They will be tied into a number two starter making uber-ace money. As for them getting an ace.. they really didn't. If Zito is an ace in numbers and performance (and not just in name), than there are enough aces around to keep from paying one 120+ million over 7 years. i think just personel-wise, SF absolutely had to do it. the staff was hung out to dry when schmidt who i feel has an elite arm, left for LA. They had to go hard for Zito. Did they have to out-bid everyone else by 1-2 years, and 30-40 million? No. More likely that Boras got them to believe there were other offers out there, ala A-Rod after the 2000 season. And Schmidt is a borderline elite arm, so that loss definitely had to be filled. But for a team who isn't going to contend for a WS, I don't see the logic in tying up so much money to this pitcher, who isn't putting the team over the top. Not even close. i mean who knows what zito will turn out as but more than likely he'll have 3 or 4 great or even outstanding years for this team.That's not even close to more than likely. Look at his track record. He's had 1 outstanding year in his career (02), and it really was great. Then he had two arguably (but that really is pushing it) great years in 01 and 03. His 00 was a little short to be considered, but he was damn good that year too. Since then, he's had a borderline bad season, and two above average ones. A switch from the AL to the NL will help, but if they're banking on 3-4 great or outstanding seasons out of him, they either have a much different definition of great and outstanding than me, or are looking at a different pitcher. He'll put up a 3.30-3.70 era, with 15+ wins, and pitch 200 innings. He's a very good pitcher. He's not an ace, which he was paid as. He's probably not even the best pitcher on that staff right now. ANY time you get a great pitcher it's a great signing. i understand it was too much money but that's the way it's going right now in baseball. Anytime you get a great pitcher it's a great addition. Doesn't make it a great signing. It was a horrendous signing. Very good addition. Obviously you'd like to add Zito. I wanted Zito for the Mets, at a reasonable cost. But I don't think teams need to fall into the trap of 'that's the way it is going in baseball' to overpay. There will be other free agents, superior ones. No need for that contract. what i meant was they were going to pay the likes of players like carlos lee close to that money. i'd rather have zito than lee any day for the simple fact that he's a quality pitcher. i respect the fact that you think money shouldn't have been spent so freely. i don't however understand how you can think that a quality left hander, that - whether or not you think he's an ace - is not capable of putting up outstanding numbers in NL west ballparks... if a player has put up outstanding numbers before then that's documented proof that he CAN do it, and everyone knows he has the talent... i just don't understand how that's "not even close to more than likely" but ok. this isn't a salary cap league, i know you know that, i'm not tryna insult intelligence or anything... but the ONLY reason owners were not spending money to begin with is because they were greedy. with the new CBA that stuff goes out the window. does that justify signing zito to that money? probably not, yea they overpaid, but he is a quality pitcher with ace-talent. i'm not going to make stats my only point of view, that's not baseball... they're relivant but if you're literally going to tell me "ZITO IS GOING TO GET 3.3 - 3.7 ERA" then i'm not really interested in that... maybe he will, i don't know... fact is, you don't know, nobody knows. we'll see, and that's all.
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Post by duce on Dec 29, 2006 23:51:39 GMT -5
oh and not for nothin but with the exception of like 1 start, zito sure has pitched great in the post-season. and he'll give you 220 innings every year so... he might be overpaid but it's not like they're paying for a huge question mark.
i think we can agree, it's better to overpay for a guy when you at least know he's a lock to be a front-line starter, get those innings and be solid in the playoffs... plus he's lefty.
imo, it's a better signing in theory than dice-k was for my boston team.
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Post by Vernon on Dec 29, 2006 23:53:06 GMT -5
It's a lot of money to pay for Zito but pitching in the National league and a great pitchers balllpark will make him a top pitcher for many years.
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Post by Mark on Dec 30, 2006 0:02:56 GMT -5
i don't however understand how you can think that a quality left hander, that - whether or not you think he's an ace - is not capable of putting up outstanding numbers in NL west ballparks... if a player has put up outstanding numbers before then that's documented proof that he CAN do it, and everyone knows he has the talent... i just don't understand how that's "not even close to more than likely" but ok.
Not really a huge difference between the NL and AL west parks, though the NL west parks are better on pitchers. As for it being documented proof.. at this point, it's too long ago for me to expect that, or think it is feasible. It's the same argument given by those who like Oliver Perez, and his 2004 season.
It's "not even close to more than likely" because you're saying it's more than likely that he'll either be great or outstanding, something he hasn't been since 2002 (outstanding) or 2003 (a little less than great). It's about to be the 2007 season. Do you think he has a better chance to be the 3.8 (make it 3.5, since he's moving to the NL) era guy he has been the last two years, or a 2.80 era guy (which would justify great)? I think it is much, much more likely that he is the former than the latter. He is a very, very durable pitcher, above average in performance, and is left-handed. He is not an ace, and he was given a ridiculous amount of cash. Hey, more power to him for getting that money. He's a good number two starter though, and I don't really see an argument against that (unless you buy heavily into the move from the AL to the NL, which will definitely play a role in reducing his numbers, but it would take a major reduction to turn him into an elite pitcher, numbers-wise).
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Post by KruPaxson on Dec 30, 2006 0:20:45 GMT -5
It's a lot of money to pay for Zito but pitching in the National league and a great pitchers balllpark will make him a top pitcher for many years. with that short porch in right are you kidding me....oakland was a nice place to pitch and shea would have even been better
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Post by Spencer on Dec 30, 2006 0:26:25 GMT -5
I dont think he is an elite SP, but I do think he is an ace. Just because he isnt a All Star type pitcher doesnt mean he isnt ace material. An ace is a #1 starter, and to me he is that. He has over 14 wins in 5 of his 6 full seasons. He has 220+ IPs each season. Hes a horse.
I dont think the contract is justifiable, but I also dont think it was ridiculously more then other teams were offering.
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Post by djmyte on Dec 30, 2006 0:31:26 GMT -5
Totally worth it... ...
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Post by duce on Dec 30, 2006 0:36:03 GMT -5
the ball kind of flies out of oakland actually. the home run stats have been crazy there.
well regardless, mark, i agree he's overpaid. and i know he doesn't have the stats of an ace lately and even though i don't really buy into stats the giants did go too far. i don't really buy into the NL thing THAT much, i do a little... i mean look at mulder and hudson...
the only thing i don't agree with is that i think talent matters over stats. and i believe zito has the talent of an ace in the corrent environment. obviously to you that is probably false. but to me i think i've seen enough baseball to know zito can pitch at a very high level. it seems to be a questionable signing but the risk/reward right now is actually not bad at all.
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Post by Lumley316 on Dec 30, 2006 2:41:05 GMT -5
I watched Zito tipping off his pitches against the Angels earlier this year.
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Post by Dan on Dec 30, 2006 10:42:45 GMT -5
thats swheeet
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Post by duce on Dec 30, 2006 12:14:08 GMT -5
I watched Zito tipping off his pitches against the Angels earlier this year. it couldn't have been that bad. i mean a guy who throws at the speed zito does... if he was tipping his pitches he wouldn't have lasted 2 innings, even if it was the angels offense.
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Post by Lumley316 on Dec 30, 2006 20:17:52 GMT -5
I watched him from the 3rd base side, it was a game the Angels lost I think. You could totally see him cuffing his wrist when he threw a curveball from a fastball. But regaurdless he doesnt have much difference in the speeds. I did read earlier that he has something wrong with his mechanics during the time he was struggling.
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