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Post by aaronjh on Jan 6, 2007 16:03:01 GMT -5
Think Mark's being disingenuous, but I don't know.
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Post by aaron2344 on Jan 6, 2007 16:04:35 GMT -5
hmm...anyone like any of my players?
and for those who don't know, baron/bibby aren't on my team, haha
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Post by aaronjh on Jan 6, 2007 16:05:07 GMT -5
hmm...anyone like any of my players? and for those who don't know, baron/bibby aren't on my team, haha Get out of this thread.
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Post by manasrai on Jan 6, 2007 18:12:26 GMT -5
lol
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Post by Mark on Jan 7, 2007 15:32:32 GMT -5
Bibby: 6.4 to 2.5 career APG/TPG. Baron: 7.2 to 2.7 career APG/TPG. Agreed, Baron should come into the league with better handle than you think Bibby will *max* at. Yup. Agreed. Marbury: 2.58 assists per every TO. A handle already. Bibby: 2.56 assists per every TO. B max, ideally. This is just pathetic to me. At this point, it isn't even a sim conversation, but an NBA one, and I'm wondering where you're getting these views.
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Post by Mark on Jan 7, 2007 15:36:58 GMT -5
And for the record, APG/TPG ratio is a pretty dumb way to view handle IMO, but I'm just responding in the same terms that were presented to me.
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Post by manasrai on Jan 7, 2007 15:38:46 GMT -5
Hasn't Spencer said more than once that he's NOT trying to stick firmly to reality with ratings? bitch all you want, but I think thats fine.
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Post by Mark on Jan 7, 2007 15:42:02 GMT -5
I just said that I don't even care about it in sim terms at this point. I'm more interested in having an NBA talk, because my goal isn't to change Bibby (he won't change) or to hurt Baron or Marbury. Aaron and I talked about this for a while last night, and it was a damn interesting talk IMO. And I realize we aren't sticking to reality 100%, otherwise we wouldn't have Francis and Marbury as franchise players. Unless you're the real Knicks.
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Post by Mark on Jan 7, 2007 15:46:22 GMT -5
Hasn't Spencer said more than once that he's NOT trying to stick firmly to reality with ratings? bitch all you want, but I think thats fine. But, if he's not trying to stick firmly to reality with ratings, why did he use "reality stats" to "prove the point" about Bibby's ratings? Hmm?
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Post by KruPaxson on Jan 7, 2007 15:46:32 GMT -5
who cares marky mark....just go with the flow and make the best personel decisions as possible...who knows bibby could be b+/a- if you treat him right. I know spence has made players and he is shocked at sometimes how good/bad they wind up. Let nature runs its course on Bibby and Baron and such. Maybe Baron tops out b+ handles or maybe he drops to B. I think it's rather interesting thinking about all of this. If you look at the draft this year from 5-15 you could pretty much draft anyone and I think thats great. Some are going to be disappointed and some are going to be excited and isn't that realistic because that happens with every draft class.
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Post by Spencer on Jan 7, 2007 15:47:07 GMT -5
Bibby: 6.4 to 2.5 career APG/TPG. Baron: 7.2 to 2.7 career APG/TPG. Agreed, Baron should come into the league with better handle than you think Bibby will *max* at. Yup. Agreed. Marbury: 2.58 assists per every TO. A handle already. Bibby: 2.56 assists per every TO. B max, ideally. This is just pathetic to me. At this point, it isn't even a sim conversation, but an NBA one, and I'm wondering where you're getting these views. Marbury was already created in the file, and if I had spent more time on each young player in the file Imsure Marbs wouldve been a little lower. Bibby is definately more in line with what I view him as, a shoot first point guard that doesnt make his teammates better. Baron Davis is a true point guard and while his career Asst to TO ratio is similar to Bibby, he has improved pretty much every year over the last 5. He consistently gets 8 assists a game, while slowly dropping his TOs. Over the last 4 years, Baron is averaging over 8 apg. To me this is a trend. 8 apg with less then 3 tos is a top point guard. Bibby consistently has lower TOs, but has only had over 8 dimes twice in his career, and he hasnt had over 7 apg in over 5 years. This is also a trend to me. Baron Davis is developing into a 8+ assist guy, while Bibby is developing into a sub 7 assist guy. Davis is also a year younger which means thatif anyone has time to develop into a better player, its Baron. This year seeing Baron every game you can see his game develop. He is a true floor leader, that can create shots for his teammates. he makes players better. I dont think this can be said about Mike Bibby. Id also venture to say that Tony Parker doesnt make his teammates better. Hes a very good scorer, and shooter. He is also a good ball handler, but I dont think he creates plays for his teammates like Davis. Mark, you obviously havent seen enough of Baron Davis to look at his positives. He does take bad shots sometimes, but more often then not he takes some bad shots late in the shot clock because a play has broken down. He is much better this year at working for a good shot instead of hoisting up a 3. He isnt a good shooter. No doubt about it. Hes very streaky, and really needs to depend on driving to the basket to score. This year hes been pretty unstoppable when going to the basket, and I dont expect that to change anytime soon.
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Post by Spencer on Jan 7, 2007 15:48:53 GMT -5
Hasn't Spencer said more than once that he's NOT trying to stick firmly to reality with ratings? bitch all you want, but I think thats fine. But, if he's not trying to stick firmly to reality with ratings, why did he use "reality stats" to "prove the point" about Bibby's ratings? Hmm? When talking about Bibby and Baron I have tried to be very realistic. I think both will end up pretty uch how I think they are in the NBA. Marbs I didnt lower enough from the initial file. Francis is pretty much how people viewed him when he came out, as opposed to what he turned out to be.
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Post by Spencer on Jan 7, 2007 15:51:11 GMT -5
And for the record, APG/TPG ratio is a pretty dumb way to view handle IMO, but I'm just responding in the same terms that were presented to me. Overall I agree with this, but part of handling is Asst to TO ratio. Handling is made up of 3 things. Passing which equals assists Handling which Im assuming is not only TOs, but also how easily a player can get to the basket. And Quickness, which is probably some combination of getting open, or going to the basket, and for movement on defense. A guy can have B handles, and never turn the ball over. A guy can have A- handles and have 4 tos a game. It all depends on what the 3 ratings give you together.
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Post by Spencer on Jan 7, 2007 15:53:37 GMT -5
who cares marky mark....just go with the flow and make the best personel decisions as possible...who knows bibby could be b+/a- if you treat him right. I know spence has made players and he is shocked at sometimes how good/bad they wind up. Let nature runs its course on Bibby and Baron and such. Maybe Baron tops out b+ handles or maybe he drops to B. I think it's rather interesting thinking about all of this. If you look at the draft this year from 5-15 you could pretty much draft anyone and I think thats great. Some are going to be disappointed and some are going to be excited and isn't that realistic because that happens with every draft class. I think its lame when people put up a stink about ratings. We all know itd be boring if all the ratings were exactly how guys turned out in the NBA. SO when there is variation, it makes things more interesting. On the other hand I find it quite ditrubing that Baron has such a bad reputation amongst GMs in the league because hes a very good player. Hes having a great year, and he deserves more respect.
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Post by KruPaxson on Jan 7, 2007 15:58:36 GMT -5
who cares marky mark....just go with the flow and make the best personel decisions as possible...who knows bibby could be b+/a- if you treat him right. I know spence has made players and he is shocked at sometimes how good/bad they wind up. Let nature runs its course on Bibby and Baron and such. Maybe Baron tops out b+ handles or maybe he drops to B. I think it's rather interesting thinking about all of this. If you look at the draft this year from 5-15 you could pretty much draft anyone and I think thats great. Some are going to be disappointed and some are going to be excited and isn't that realistic because that happens with every draft class. I think its lame when people put up a stink about ratings. We all know itd be boring if all the ratings were exactly how guys turned out in the NBA. SO when there is variation, it makes things more interesting. On the other hand I find it quite ditrubing that Baron has such a bad reputation amongst GMs in the league because hes a very good player. Hes having a great year, and he deserves more respect. well you are dealing with mostly people's opinions from the east coast who haven't seen as much Baron as you have. Think you got UCLA + GS. He was lost on the Hornets and that was a terrible situation to be in because he had to be the man there and he got a reputation like Antoine Walker for chucking. He also had the ball so much his to's are high. If you look at Baron now on a team with talent he is thriving. I think the best has yet to come with Baron.
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Post by Spencer on Jan 7, 2007 16:01:04 GMT -5
Richardson hasnt even really played well this year. hes been in and out of the lineup, and hasnt been close to 100%. And the Warriors are still over 500. I think thats impressive, because it means its been prety much Baron doing it all. hes got help from guys like Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins. Others like Pietrus, and Barnes. But really, I think Barnes, Pietrus and Biedrins success rests on Barons shoulders. Hes been just amazing this year.
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Post by manasrai on Jan 7, 2007 16:01:08 GMT -5
Baron deserves to be an allstar
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Post by KruPaxson on Jan 7, 2007 16:04:37 GMT -5
Well Barnes is really doing a little bit of everything. Ellis before the ankle injury was really taking care of the scoring load missed from jrich. Pietrus shows signs from game to game. It's been upsetting jrich hasn't been able to go full throttle. PS the Jet's season is over as I type this. Baron has been #2 pg in the NBA behind Kidd(also since Paul is out).
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Post by Spencer on Jan 7, 2007 16:05:58 GMT -5
If I were starting a franchise right now, the only PG Id take before Baron is Paul
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Post by aaron2344 on Jan 7, 2007 16:09:57 GMT -5
baron davis the #2 point guard in the league right now!?!?
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Post by Spencer on Jan 7, 2007 16:11:56 GMT -5
To start a franchise, yes. To win a game, no. Id take a number of guys for the season, or for a game over Baron.
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Post by KruPaxson on Jan 7, 2007 16:17:04 GMT -5
baron davis the #2 point guard in the league right now!?!? oops I totally oversited that guy Steve Nash. Billups doesn't compile the stats as BD but I think they are two totally different players. I think Detroit has really made Billups into a great player but I'm not sure if you stick him somewhere else right now if he is the same player. By no stretch is that a shot at Billups but I think between Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Sheed they all compliment each other so well. A guy like Steve Francis hasn't been the same player without his rumored to be boyfriend Mobley(yes that is a legit rumor they are gay). He was always a better player with him haha ok so not the best example.
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